 This week, we chat with Exit 44 Entertainment filmmakers Eric Brodeur and Ty Leisher. We discuss how they began their careers working in Hollywood, the start of Exit 44 Entertainment, the difference between making horror independently versus studio work, the creepy motivation behind their upcoming feature film 11th Hour Cleaning and their love for films. What was each of yours first introduction to horror? Ty: My introduction to horror as a kid was R.L. Stein's Goosebumps series of books. I would devour those and the Scary Stories to Tell In The Dark books almost every night. As I got older, there was an old Nickelodeon show called Are You Afraid of the Dark, which was quite scary and "adult" for a pre-teen. My father was always reading Stephen King and he would pass them down to me when he was finished, so I got to read Pet Semetary, It, and other King classics early on. My first foray into horror cinema was 1999's The Haunting, which is kind of campy now looking back but terrified me as a kid. It was only a PG-13 rating, so my parents let me see it. I was hooked. Later I would watch Scream, and I Know What You Did Last Summer when they were on HBO or something. I always preferred the Goosebumps supernatural to the slasher of Scream. Eric: I can't recall the first horror film I watched but, growing up in the 80’s, I saw the classics the first time around A Nightmare on Elm Street, The Howling, American Werewolf in London, The Thing, Demons, Hellraiser and so many other titles that I don't recall. After work, my buddy and I would grab some food and a six-pack of beer, rent a few horror films from the local video store, and watch them until the early hours of the next morning. We rented so many that my friend's nickname in the video store's computer system was "horror freak." He wasn't pleased. You both have a great taste in horror and both different ways of being introduced to horror which is cool. I don’t see an issue with being called "horror freak." So tell me How did you both get started in the industry? Ty: My path is more like a squiggly maze-like line than a direct route. I started as a production assistant for one of the first daily video game shows to stream online called Epileptic Gaming. After the company that funded them went bankrupt, I bounced around until I landed a job as a production assistant on The Office. I worked on a few MTV pilots, a High School Musical reality show, and a few other films. I always wanted to write and direct, and I thought editorial might be a good way in for me. I got a job working as a logger and assistant editor on The Amazing Race for nine seasons. In 2017, they went on hiatus, and I wanted to learn how distribution worked, so I reached out to an independent distribution company named Gravitas Ventures. They offered me an internship. Three months later, my wife and I found out we were expecting our first child, so I needed something more stable with health insurance. Gravitas Ventures offered me a role in sales and filmmaker relations. I spent three and a half years with Gravitas before our first feature, 11th Hour Cleaning, was made. While working whatever job I could find to keep living, I worked on my own projects, including a poker-crime web series titled Bullets based on my time playing, or losing, I should say in online poker. It was released in 2012 on JTS.tv, a now-defunct online streaming site dedicated to web series and is still available online for free. Eric: I was already living in Los Angeles and made a career change from the Information Technology industry into film. It took some time to figure out how I wanted to satisfy my creative desires and utilize my existing skills. With the help of career coach Janet Conn, whose late husband is editor Norman Hollyn, I decided to become a picture editor. I told everyone I knew that I was looking for a trainee position (i.e., free help), and a friend responded back with a job lead. It became my first gig which was essentially "film school" and from there, I did what everyone tells you to do: meet people, network. This led to two gigs, which led to two other gigs, which became a major turning point. I was editor on Filly Brown, and assistant editor on The Sessions. Both went to the Sundance Film Festival in the same year. These small successes landed me a job working on commercials and ultimately meeting editors and directors, which got me into studio features. Those are very inspiring! And two features in Sundance at once? Congrat! That is not common. I think it is important for our audience to note that everyone has different paths, especially in this industry. What keeps you guys interested in the genre? Ty: Horror allows us to explore themes and bring to light issues that we believe are important while scaring the shit out of people. You can take something you care about and through, I guess you could call it monster-ification of that issue, you can create a scary film that also carries a message. For example, the titular Babadook monster representing postpartum depression, or the demon of It Follows representing the importance of safe sex and the loss of innocence at the same time. I love allegories and exploring ways of scaring people into making them think twice about things in this world. Eric: I enjoy the thrill of the unknown, being scared, and the build-up of tension which releases with the exclamation of "oh shit!" I prefer being creeped out, such as the clothes dryer scene in Identity when you think, "is that what I think it is rolling around inside?" But there are films like High Tension (unrated cut) which are sadistic and gruesome yet have strong stories and border on art. As for writing horror, there is always another story to be told or told in a new way. I think about creative ways of scaring people, whether it's gruesome or implied, a creepy character or event, etc. Horror has the unique ability to co-mingle with every other genre, which makes it limitless.  Eric Brodeur, Co-founder of Exit 44 Entertainment. That is great! I think as horror screenwriters and filmmakers, telling scary stories that are socially relevant is very important especially in today’s day and age. What is it about screenwriting that you enjoy? Ty: There's a quote by Dorothy Parker that says, "I hate writing, I love having written," and I couldn't agree more with that. Writing is hard, but that feeling that you get when you type The End and have something to show for the time and effort makes me happy. If I had to pick one part of the process I enjoy most, it's the rewrite. A lot of people hate it, but it's freeing for me. The bones are there, so you're a surgeon and cleaning up a patient rather than creating from scratch. I'm also starting to enjoy writing from a theme and exploring characters that can grow with that theme, which is something that I've been bad at in the past. Eric: I enjoy leaving sarcastic notes on anything Ty has written. But in all seriousness, writing is difficult. The genesis of the idea is enjoyable, and after that, it's a challenge. Long periods of "how do we make this work" with fleeting moments of joy when you find a way to make it come together. When you're finished with a script, you look back and take pleasure that you made characters with compelling challenges, and crafted action and dialogue, that is familiar yet distinctive to your voice. Ty, what does your writing process look like? You do more than write, you're also a director. Can you tell us more about the other roles that you have as a filmmaker? Ty: Our writing process is all over the place. Eric and I will come up with a story idea together, and then one of us will tackle it and go outline. We'll pass the outline back and give notes then write the first draft. The person who didn't write the draft will provide detailed and hefty notes, then we will rewrite together. We develop two ideas at the same time. While I am writing the outline for one, Eric is writing the outline for another. It's nice because we have almost double the output but it does take a lot of whip cracking. Personally, my writing process is to start with a story clock. This was something that Seth Worley came up with, and I really enjoy it. I'll draw a big circle, map out my plot points on that, and add the cool scenes or scares that I have in my head. The story circle works for me as well because I love writing in sequences, and the eight-sequence structure falls into the story clock perfectly. Each sequence has a goal, action, and complication that drives the narrative forward in a cause-and-effect way. As I develop the story clock, I'll start to discover the theme and what I want the story to say about my worldview. I'll build that into the story until I have everything filled out. Then I'll write a treatment based on the story clock, which is really just a dramatized version of it in longer sentences. Sometimes I'll throw in dialogue, but most of the time, it's just a single paragraph that details the events of the story. Once I have the treatment completed, I throw it into a script document, and I'll write pages. As I write a scene or beat, I'll delete it from the treatment, so my treatment is getting shorter while my script is getting longer. In addition to writing, I direct. Eric and I produce, as well. I really love all aspects of getting a film made until it stalls, then I hate it. But I wouldn't want to do anything else. That is a unique and fascinating process. I think some writers out there may find that beneficial. I like how you will delete the scene from the treatment to add it to the screenplay. There has to be some gratification in this process? Eric, you have worked on some popular horror films like Ouija and Sinister 2. Can you tell us more about what it's like working on those projects? What is something you think newer editors or someone interested in editing should know? Eric: Until those projects, everything I had worked on were indie films no one had seen. Ouija and Sinister 2, despite the relatively low budgets, are studio films with established brands. You get an instant boost in credibility because people in the industry (i.e., potential employers) will watch and know about those films. In the case of Ouija, I worked with Michael Bay's partners & producers Andrew Form and Brad Fuller, as well as director Mike Flanagan (Oculus and Dr. Sleep) and his writing partner Jeff Howard (The Haunting of Hill House and Gerald's Game). You learn so much working with successful filmmakers. It's difficult to explain the "shift," which occurs when you're on a studio film. There is real money at stake. Studio politics. Audience previews. It's a real business and in no way comparable to a short film you made with your friends for $1,000. Anyone new to editing, or interested in editing, needs to realize this industry is a marathon. Not a sprint. I know folks who edited an indie feature right out of film school, it did well in film festivals and their career took off. However, it's uncommon and don't presume you'll be in that small minority. I feel the best likelihood of long-term success is working on a studio feature or episodic show and starting at the bottom as a Post-Production Assistant or if you have some legitimate experience, as an Assistant Editor. You'll work and network with people who will help you advance. You'll understand the dynamics of the cutting room and the interactions between the executives and the filmmakers. You may be thinking, "I've edited a handful of short films and my friend's $5,000 feature, which means I'm qualified." Unfortunately, that's not true. The studio needs to be assured you're experienced at the craft of editing as well as the whole process, politics, deadlines, and the business as an entirety. Put another way, would you trust someone you hardly knew with unknown credits to cut a $10M+ film? However, everyone's career path is different. Some get lucky breaks early on, and others get them later. I think that is something I always try to convey to people. Paths are different for everything. You worded it perfectly with calling it a marathon. Finding the path that works for you as a person is the key. Do either of you have any advice/suggestions for up and coming or hopeful screenwriters, directors, or editors? Ty: When it comes to writing, you just need to start. I wasted far too much time when I was younger before I had kids. If I could go back and tell myself something ten years ago, it would be to write your ass off. You're going to write some terrible scripts and some awful characters, but you only get better by doing. Young writers, and I mean writers early in their careers, are so afraid of the blank page because they think they only get one at-bat. But the first draft is just for you, it's to help you get that weird idea that's bouncing around in your head onto paper so you can mold it and shape it into something that resembles a story. Then you MUST send it out and get feedback from people that are going to tear it apart. It's important to tear it down because you can make it better. You'll never make the script the best it can be by only sending it to people that will praise it. Go out and make stuff. Make a short on the weekend. Do a 48-hour film contest. Do whatever you need to get your words spoken out loud or your idea on the screen in some form. You learn so much by watching your old films and just by doing it. 11th Hour Cleaning is my directorial debut, and I made so many mistakes while shooting that you'll never see in the final cut, but I know what not to do on my next film. Write. Shoot. Share. Repeat. That's the only way to make it. Lastly, don't spend too much time thinking about how other people broke in, or how you're going to break in. Focus on your work and how you can improve and tell a better story on the next project. Everyone has a different break-in story, and you won't repeat it. You'll find your own way in. Eric: Whatever you make needs to be great, not good. The proliferation of filmmaking knowledge and equipment means that anyone, anywhere, with motivation and skills has the potential to make a short film or feature of high quality. What makes something great? Look at what films inspire you and realistically assess how your script or film compares from story to edit to screen. Show it to friends and get feedback. If something didn't work the way you wanted, chalk up the experience to practice, learn from it, do it again, get better. Filmmaking is like riding a bike, it gets better with practice, but you won't be competing in the Tour de France the first time you put feet on pedals. I feel the best path for most folks is "work your way up" at a production company or studio. Success in Hollywood is about who you know and how the system works. Spend a few years doing this and opportunities open up.  Ty Leisher, Co-founder of Exit 44 Entertainment This is all great advice. I think a key piece of advice taken from the both of you is that there will be mistakes, but learn from them and use that to make your craft better. I heard there is an interesting story about how the idea behind 11th Hour Cleaning. Can you tell our audience about it? Eric: I was working on Transformers 5 at the time. I suggested to Ty that it was time to make our first feature: horror, single location, small cast. He (foolishly) offered up his house as a location, and we began brainstorming ideas. Ty used his parent's experiences as the basis for our characters. We tossed around ideas for the antagonist and, as I mentioned in another question, suggested we find something a little different, which we did, from Nordic folklore. Ty: When I was younger, my parents started a foreclosed home cleaning business. One day we got called to clean a home, I was maybe eight or nine at the time, and as soon as we entered the house, you could tell something was off. We looked around the house and found vast puddles of bloodstains on the ground and walls. It was a crime scene, murder, or suicide, and they wanted us to clean it. Which, by the way, is highly illegal. You have to be certified with special equipment to do that. But we didn't know at the time, and my parents started to clean. As the night grew on, we all got more and more agitated with each other and could sense something watching us. Finally, my parents decided it was best if we just left and we didn't finish the job. But that house, and the experiences inside, stuck with me. The story of how we got started is that Eric, and our other partner at the time Ed Morrone, had just come off making a solid short. We had a $5M feature that was about to get funding. We were about to sign the paperwork. It was a dream come true, but the investor ghosted us despite him having spent $25k for line producers, budgets, and schedules. It was devastating. We spent 18 months working on that project, and it died on the vine. I don't recall if it was Eric, Ed, or myself that had the idea to just say "screw it, let's make our own low budget movie," but we all kind of had the idea at the same time. As Eric mentioned, we decided on what locations we had access to for cheap or free, and my house was chosen. We came up with a concept to make the "locked in a house" story different and unique by bringing in technology and Norse mythology. Anytime I can add mythology to our films, I'm happy. That is a fascinating but creepy story. Did you guys ever find out what actually happened at that house? Ty: Nope, we left that place as quick as we could and never looked back. I don't blame you for leaving and not looking back. It is a real fascinating story. Unfortunate to hear that your project fell through. It sounds like the ball was really running on it. Obstacles are definitely common in our industry. Can you tell us more about the company you both co-founded Exit 44 Entertainment? Ty: Exit 44 Entertainment creates mind-bending horror stories that leave your head spinning as the credits roll. We created the company in 2017 while we were working on 11th Hour Cleaning. It was initially founded by Eric and I as well as Ed Morrone, who is a producer on 11th Hour Cleaning but is no longer a partner in the company due to creative differences. We want to make thought-provoking films that linger with you. We also represent independent horror and thriller films for sale. Working as a sales representative positions us uniquely when producing our own movies to understand the trends of the market and how to best position our own films to stand out. Sounds like you guys will be using your experience and Exit 44 Entertainment to help some great independent films. What other projects are you both working on? Ty: We have a few projects in various stages of development. Our primary focus is telling mind-bending stories that stick with you long after the credits roll and make you question reality. The next film that we're excited about is a contained action-horror called Bound. It's kind of John Wick but with a female protagonist who kicks major ass and solves some intense puzzles in a horror environment. We're also developing a horror anthology series with a prominent paranormal investigator but can't give too many details right now. Lastly, we're writing two new action/horror scripts: one that I like to describe as The Shining on an island and another that's a zombie movie with a voodoo twist. Eric: What Ty said. Exciting! Those all sounds great. The Shining is a classic so making something that compares to it on an island is intriguing. I won’t ask for more details but can’t wait to see it happen. What has been your favorite project to work on, and why? Ty: I have to say 11th Hour Cleaning. Your first film always has a special place in your heart, and I'm just really proud of this one. The story is excellent, and it's a solid movie. I got to make it with my best friends, coincidentally, the godfathers of my daughter, and I can't wait to share it with the world. I also loved our short film, Stranded, because it showed me that you don't need a huge crew to create something great. We made that with a crew of four and a trip to Subway. Eric: It's difficult to choose one because each has memorable experiences. On Sinister 2, we worked with Scott Derrickson for a bit, and his ability to match temp music to scenes is extraordinary. Phil Joanou, director of The Veil, showed me "what it takes" to get things done regardless of your comfort zone when he started doing VFX shots because of our limited budget. Exeter is directed by Marcus Nispel, who rebooted Friday The 13th in 2009, and he nails it as far as the genre goes: wild parties, sex, drugs, scares, and gore. He was great to work with and it's a fun watch. Transformers 5 was amazing because you're working with people at the top of their game; whether you like the story or not, the quality of cast, crew, and footage is A+. Our film, 11th Hour Cleaning, is different because I didn't "work on" the movie. I lived every part of it. The genesis of the idea, writing, raising money, casting, crewing up, production paperwork, buying crafty, handling crew concerns, buying beer for the camera department, managing the editorial process, editing, being post-production supervisor, finding more post crew, asking for favors, preparing for distribution. Rinse and repeat. I'm fortunate to have a network of professionals and friends I can lean on, but it doesn't make it any easier asking people to work below their rate. We've learned so much making this film and ready to take that into the next one. Nothing ever happens fast enough for me, and I wish we could clone ourselves to keep more projects going at once. Where can we watch Stranded and 11th Hour Cleaning? Ty: You can see our short film Stranded on our YouTube or here in this interview. Our feature, 11th Hour Cleaning, is close to completion and we’re waiting for the town to reopen from COVID-19 to do our final mix and color timing. However, our first teaser for 11th Hour Cleaning is almost ready and we look forward to sharing it soon. Thank you for sharing that information. What are some other ways you guys are involved in the film community? Ty: Eric had created a filmmaker's meetup group in our area about a decade ago, which is how we met. The group has evolved over the years, and we still both participate, but it's different. I'm a big believer in teaching everything you know to future generations of filmmakers or screenwriters. I spend a lot of time writing articles to post on Medium or answering questions on Twitter during #ScriptChat or #PipelineWriters. I try to boost other writers whenever I can and read a ton of scripts. I've served on the arts and culture committee in my city to promote films locally. I volunteer with the Sunscreen Film Festival West, where I'm an executive director and ran their independent screening series for a while. With us acting as a sales representative, we try to educate and protect filmmakers from predatorial distributors. We want to actually help independent filmmakers get a good deal where they can keep their career moving and make money off their art. I’m excited to announce we’re working with the #StartWith8Hollywood initiative which connects women of color with industry-experienced mentors to help them advance their careers. There are many recognizable filmmakers participating in the program and we’re humbled to be a part of it. Eric: I'm on Twitter and a variety of Facebook Groups specific to editors which covers the gamut for job opportunities, technical support, industry guidance, etc. I also participate in a private filmmaker mentoring group to provide feedback and coaching for people new to the business or looking for breakthroughs. I'm open to participating in filmmaking panels, podcasts, etc. to share how I made my career change, the craft of editing, what it's like to work on indie vs. studio features, navigating the industry, and so on. That is amazing that you’re both helping others in the industry. It is tough to break into the industry so having people like you guys is great. I hear a lot of horror stories about distributors taking advantage of filmmakers. Good on you guys for finding ways to give back. What is your favorite classic horror movie? Ty: Eric and I both struggled to answer this. I think because who is to say what a classic is anymore. I mean, Scream was 30 years ago, does that qualify it to be a classic horror movie? It also feels cliché to say something like The Shining or Psycho, even though those films are epic and must-watch movies for any horror fan. If I had to pick one, it would be A Nightmare on Elm Street, but there are too many good horror films from the past hundred years. Watch 'em all! Eric: There are different eras of horror; therefore, what is "classic" needs to have a decade slapped on it. The Phantom Carriage in 1922. Nosferatu in 1929. Frankenstein in 1931. Creature From The Black Lagoon in 1954. Fast forward to exploitation films in the 60’s and 70’s. Last House On The Left was the genesis of Wes Craven's career in 1972. Halloween in 1978. Friday the 13th in 1980. A Nightmare on Elm Street in 1984. Hellraiser in 1987. Fast forward to Scream in 1996. Saw in 2004. Fast forward to The Conjuring in 2013. These are all classics in their time. Haha. See, I said classic and I got a great list from the both of you. Worked in my favor. Lol. Classic is very broad, but I leave it to the interpretation of those I interview. What movies & filmmakers give you the most inspiration? Ty: Christopher Nolan and David Fincher are two of my favorite filmmakers. The way they bend reality and show torturous worlds is impressive and inspiring. I'm also hugely inspired by Alfred Hitchcock and Steven Spielberg. It's kind of cliché to say Spielberg and Hitchcock now, but they really laid the foundation for terrorizing people with films. Contemporary filmmakers that are huge inspirations for me are Jordan Peele, Mike Flanagan, and JJ Abrams. Peele's work with sociopolitical horror is terrific. Flanagan has continued to wow me since I first discovered his films. Oculus is still one of my top three favorite horror films of the past ten years. Lastly, Abrams is doing amazing work with Castle Rock and Westworld. I can't wait to see Lovecraft Country. Eric: I'm old school when it comes to this: Star Wars, Raiders Of The Lost Ark, Jaws, Lethal Weapon, and Alien. I don't get attached to any filmmaker because audiences and those films must be appreciated in the context of their time and time can be fickle. Some films resonate with me as a whole, but most have particular scenes or characters which stick with me decades later. Those are the films I want to make...ones where you find yourself daydreaming about what may have happened to your favorite hero years or even decades after The End. What is something in everyday life that scares you? Ty: Healthcare bills. No, but seriously, what scares me the most is what our minds are capable of. They are complex systems that can snap at any moment if a chemical imbalance is present. I suffered from anxiety and depression after we finished shooting 11th Hour Cleaning. I attribute it to living in a haunted house for two weeks and getting about five hours of sleep each night with an eight-month-old baby. But it came on suddenly. There is a fine line between the mind of a serial killer and an average person, and that terrifies me. I'm also big on psychology and what types of disorders and conditions that our brain can have. For example, a dissociative fugue, which Agatha Christie suffered from, makes you travel far from home, forget who you are, and create a new identity. You could wake up tomorrow as a different person entirely, and that's scary. That's the stuff I want to explore, what is reality and what is our perception of reality. But if you wanted to get more granular, people or things not being where they should, or acting in inhuman ways like The Blair Witch Project. People are weird. Eric: The evil that people do to others is far more terrifying than what might occur in a film. The complete randomness for which someone might crack and do something heinous to their loved ones, neighbors, or complete strangers. What else scares me? Dark, creaky places. Eyes that reflect back at you.  What is your dream project? Ed: I think less about a "dream project" and more about a "dream career." A career where I can make films on a consistent basis, with sufficient resources, and work alongside a crew and cast I admire. Ty: I'm with Eric. I think more about having a dream career where I can make films that entertain and enlighten people to issues or themes that I care about. There are a few existing properties that I'd love to get my hands into, like Spawn. Spawn is my favorite anti-hero, and there is so much we could do with that world of heaven and hell right now. I've been trying to get a 7th Guest movie made for years, based on the video game from the 90’s, but I doubt it'll happen with us. I'd also love to take a crack at the cosmic horror genre and explore the fear of the unknown, like HP Lovecraft's work, but something unique and new. Best of luck as you both continue your careers. Any parting words on the industry for our audience? Ty: This is a tough business, and you need to have thick skin and the tenacity to see it through. The one thing that everyone in this industry has in common is that they never gave up. You have to believe in yourself, believe in your stories, and trust that your voice and creative energy are worthwhile. Don't let anyone tell you that you can't make it or that it's never going to happen for you. Like I said above, I'm always trying to educate or share experiences with other aspiring writers/filmmakers. Eric: As Ty said, you need to keep at it. Don't let people discourage you from pursuing your dreams, but that doesn't mean you should ignore feedback. Don't compare yourself to everyone else and what they've achieved, but don't put your head in the sand either. Self-assessment and course correction is a critical component of success. Breaking into this business is not easy. Growing your career isn't easy. You're only as good as the last film you made, so learn from that experience and make it better next time around. You're going to need to make sacrifices, and these are different for everyone. If you have a mortgage, you may be less inclined to take the necessary risks in your career. You might not see your spouse or kids as much as you'd like. Divorce...a very real possibility. Whatever you want to do as a filmmaker – be passionate and stay focused. You need the passion because the sacrifices can be rough. Stay focused, so you become known as an expert in that craft before you move into something else. Thank you both for your time. If you have other social media, websites or anything you want to plug please share here. If you have any questions, I'm all ears on Twitter @TyLeisher and Eric can be found at @EBrodeur. Our YouTube channel at Exit 44 Entertainment. If you’d like to stay informed about our feature, 11th Hour Cleaning, take a moment and sign up for email updates here. Follow HorrOrigins Social Media Pages
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